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Best of class: Assault frigates

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Caleb Seremshur Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two 871	Posted - 2017.05.06 05:44:00 - [1] - Quote I've been inspired to make this thread in relation to some other threads elsewhere talking about AF's getting new roles etc. I don't think that new "roles" are especially needed in a game that already has specialised niche ships. What new role could an AF even possibly have? The game has mechanical limitations to it not just in terms of ship interaction but server structure as well, this is why the proposed "flak cannon" AF's idea will never work. Even if you could program them to be this way, they just simply wouldn't work at an architectural level. So instead I'd rather approach AF's from a different angle. The goal of this thread has 3 simple objectives. To delineate functionally good assault frigates vs functionally poor ones. To propose highly specific discussion about individual ships regarding their strengths and what weaknesses they may have To generate lists for ships which prove the above points but with a simple caveat: the fit of modules cannot be more than 2x the value of the hull. Ergo a 30mil hull is allowed 60mil of modules. Extra points are awarded for fits that go 1:1 or better. You will lose points for not using modules that conform to the ships native bonuses. That means shield tanked armour bonused ships lose points. It means a laser rokh loses points. You get the idea. So I'll go first. Starting from the top, using pyfa as my analysis tool: Quote: [Vengeance, Vengeance solo] Shadow Serpentis Small Armor Repairer Shadow Serpentis Small Armor Repairer Ballistic Control System II Shadow Serpentis Adaptive Nano Plating Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 200 Warp Scrambler II 5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket Small Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket Rocket Launcher II, Nova Javelin Rocket Small Anti-Thermal Pump II Small Bay Loading Accelerator II Inherent Implants 'Squire' Power Grid Management EG-603 Standard Exile Booster Navy Cap Booster 200 x20 So with some of these modules the prices that come up in pyfa are a bit off. This is the best well rounded fit I personally could come up with for a 'reasonable' budget. The reppers themselves are actually overcosted here, you can get them much cheaper. Some vitals to analyse - 166hp/s tank / 201hp/s with exile. 211 dps with rage rockets. Neuting pressure. Combined price in pyfa is 52mil. Some commentary I'd like to drop at this point is that this ship just screams for more PG. It only needs 1 more pg to be an actually useful ship, which would allow you to just use t2 reppers which are cheaper yet again. This fit actually technically doesn't work. It is 55.36 pg available and it needs 55.4 meaning you need 0.04pg to make even a basic fit with some faction gear work. I don't find this acceptable at all. Either that or continue to downgrade and downgrade equipment until the ship becomes worse than a t1. So let's get some discussion rolling, anyone make a better vengeance fit for cheaper? Any input on this specific hull? I think it's really important to discuss these things and get some numbers popping out because CCP do actually act on strong evidence when something is wrong.
Caleb Seremshur Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two 871	Posted - 2017.05.06 09:04:36 - [2] - Quote Do Little wrote: Why would you pay 24 million for a Vengance when you can buy a Confessor or Jackdaw for 35 million? In what scenario is the Assault Frigate a better choice? That's the viewpoint you need to approach any rebalance discussion. AFs are not independent entities - they exist as part of an ecosystem and they can't compete with T3 destroyers. They need a new niche. Ok so t2 frigate is 24-30mil T2 dessy is 50 mil T3 dessy is 35 mil T2 cruiser is 180-220mil is it purely market forces or maybe the costs of t3d is way out of line?
Caleb Seremshur Pineapple Pizza LLC 875	Posted - 2017.05.11 11:17:17 - [3] - Quote W0lf Crendraven wrote: Afs are **** even without t3ds. Its not like t3ds are actually a thing in fw lowsec anymore anyways. Afs are to slow, they cant beat kiters and they arent good enough brawlers to compete with t1 cruisers or similar. A comet will 1v1 most afs, and even if it doesnt win it can always get away. A AF is basicely a t1 dessie in performance for pretty much everything, the extra speed and sig reduction is meaningless in battles vs ships that are smaller then cruisers. And ever since the t1 cruiser redesign afs cant beat cruisers and up anyways. Part of this thread was meant to collate info for the devs about what players had as expectations for AF going forward. If you watched the fan fest clip where Larrikin talks about making AF more like marauders then you can see conceptually where they're headed. But Very big but They're reasoning for this change was that lots of newbs run low level missions in AF which I personally think is a total non sequitur. I know a guy who does hacking sites in null using an interceptor because they are bubble immune. You wouldn't think so but its true. I know that marauders themselves were designed for pve specifically and pvp use is just incidental bonuses but taking a pure pvp class like AF and giving them a rather nebulous redesign to pve so that their puny dps can let them run almost worthless missions is bizarre. The real question I'd have is if looking waaay back in time to tgose days what specifically led CCP to decide that these kind of slow but tanky frigates whom most fight inside scram range what the point of giving them a 50% mwd sig bloom bonus was. Unlike their big brothers the hac they don't have the range or the fittings with these systems to really start kiting or whatever. Nevermind ships like vengeance or hawk whose bonuses are specifically tuned for a job they're just not brilliant at.
Caleb Seremshur Pineapple Pizza LLC 878	Posted - 2017.05.12 21:11:18 - [4] - Quote Care to qualify that statement? Seems pretty far fetched to suggest that similarly priced or cheaper hulls are 100% without a doubt better than any AF of similar bonuses. Infact from casual observation most pirate ships can only boast more speed and damage very rarely can they match the tank.

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